How will a lapse in federal food assistance impact millions of Americans?

Archon Fung: Hi, welcome to Terms of Engagement. This is episode seventeen already. My name is Archon Fung. I’m a professor here at the Kennedy School and the director of the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation.

Stephen Richer: And I’m Stephen Richer. I’m the former elected Maricopa County recorder, and I’m now a senior practice fellow at the Ash Center at Harvard Kennedy School.

Archon Fung: And as always we’re speaking as individuals not as representatives of the institution in any regard.

Stephen Richer: And also as always we welcome your comments we welcome your questions so you can just pop them into the chat if you’re on YouTube or if you’re on twitter and we’ll see them in the comment section here and I’ll try to work them into the conversation.

Archon Fung: Great. And we’ve got our news rundown will be a little bit longer, a couple minutes longer than usual because there’s been a lot of news. Most important, of course, is that the L.A. Dodgers beat the Toronto Blue Jays in an amazing game seven, which many sports writers are reporting is maybe the most exciting game seven in Major League Baseball history. That’s a big claim. I don’t know about that. However, a notable feature of this World Series is that Yoshinobu Yamamoto actually made America great again by beating the Toronto Blue Jays. Of course, Toronto’s in Canada. And I’m wondering, Stephen, do you think that Stephen Miller will send Yamamoto-san a greeting card or change his views on the values of immigrant workers as a result of this?

Stephen Richer: I think he could afford the gold card. where you can pay five million dollars for US citizenship status. So I think he’s going to be okay. But it really was a World Series in that it was a team from Los Angeles playing in Toronto with some stars from Japan who were born in Japan. And so it did encompass the world. And I thought that was kind of neat. And you could see the crowd shots from Japan with fans of Otani that were going crazy. And so that made me feel good. I think President Trump was rooting for the Dodgers because he currently doesn’t like Canada. But I don’t know if there were ever any Canadians actually on the Blue Jays.

Archon Fung: Yeah, I don’t know. It’s an international, it’s a global sport.

Stephen Richer: When we have hockey games and we have the U.S. team here in the United States or something like that, but then you look at who’s on it and it’s mostly Canadians, Eastern Europeans, Russians or something like that. Not the Olympic team, but in the NHL. Yeah, very good.

Archon Fung: Hey, on a more sober note, we do have a couple of deaths to report very close to home. Our friend and colleague Setti Warren passed away this weekend. Setti was the director of the Institute of Politics and the Ash Center does a lot of work with the Institute of Politics, many events. Setti was a great friend, always a fantastic colleague. So very, very sorry about that, as a tragic kind of passing. And then on the national news, of course, today it was reported that former Vice President Dick Cheney passed away. Also very sad. It’s kind of early days in the reporting. It is notable to me, at least on my news feed, there was a fair amount of criticism about the legacy, especially Vice President Cheney’s role in the Iraq War after 9/11. Very different tenor of kind of discussion than following the Charlie Kirk assassination, which I found a little bit striking.

Stephen Richer: Well, Vice President Cheney did die of natural circumstances. And so fortunately, not a tragic circumstance around his death. Now, obviously, it’s a loss for the family. And I happen to know the family. And so wishing them all the best. He’s certainly somebody who lived a very full life, had basically every single position under the sun that you can imagine over decades and decades. Yeah, really. And so it was extraordinary. And then, as far as Setti, that’s the top news story for me and for the Kennedy School here. He ran the Institute of Politics, was responsible for doing a lot of neat things at the Kennedy School. When we hosted Vice President Pence recently, that was, of course, through Setti in conjunction with the Institute of Politics, and justa  big loss for the HKS community.

Archon Fung: Absolutely. And today is election day in many, many jurisdictions all across the country. So go out and vote if you haven’t done so already. I imagine next time we’ll be talking about some of the more prominent elections in the United States. We’ll probably be talking about New York and New Jersey and Virginia. New York, New Jersey, Virginia, California.

And then the ballot proposition in California is especially important for people watching democracy.

Stephen Richer: Lots of local races that are very important to how your city or town or county is governed on a daily basis. So get out there. Yeah, absolutely.

Archon Fung: And this is day thirty-five of this current federal government shutdown, which makes it a tie for the longest federal government shutdown in U.S. history. The last government shutdown to hit thirty-five days was in the first Trump administration in two thousand eighteen nineteen, around funding of the border wall. So now we’re tied. And I don’t see this shutdown being resolved in the next twenty four hours. So I think this will be the longest shutdown in U.S. history.

Stephen Richer: And my wife already won in our household. I said it would end in October. She said it would end after October. And so she has officially won now.

Archon Fung: Did you put that on FanDuel?

Stephen Richer: I don’t know. Well, you know, it seems a little unfair to bet with somebody who’s not currently getting a salary because she’s a federal government employee. But she won.

Archon Fung: So, yeah. very good and in another unprecedented uh development snap benefits the supplemental nutrition assistance program will uh has been shut off as of saturday and this is the first time since snap’s creation sixty years ago that benefits are not getting paid. This is the money that some forty three million people across the country receive to buy groceries.

Stephen Richer: Forty three million. Forty three million. Because that number really surprised me. I didn’t realize it was that high.

Archon Fung: One out of every eight or nine. And we’ll be focusing on SNAP for this discussion. So we’ll return to that in a moment. And I just wanted to spend thirty seconds framing this up as a democracy issue. Obviously, the level of SNAP benefits, whether there should be any SNAP benefits at all, that’s a policy issue about which reasonable people can disagree. Of course, there are two different democracy kinds of perspectives on this and levels in my mind. First of all, once we’ve decided to fund SNAP and pay it, I think the shutdown and the shutdown of benefits is an indicator of democratic dysfunction. Like, why can’t these guys work it out? And that’s not necessarily a partisan take at all.

Stephen Richer: That’s like, why didn’t the potholes get filled? Right. Absolutely.

Archon Fung: Once you’ve decided to fill the potholes and they don’t get filled, that’s a problem with our political institutions, at the national level. And then a second democracy kind of take is at the local level in communities all around the country and definitely in greater Boston. And we’ll get into this in just a couple of seconds. Local democracy, which is about local officials and community organizations, and civic organizations. And my wife, while we’re recording this podcast, is distributing food benefit cards. Individuals are trying to help out and solve the problems that their communities face. And in this case, for the next several days, hopefully not longer, but maybe longer, part of the challenges that local communities face is gonna be very much about hunger and food security.

Stephen Richer: And this topic is very much a live topic. In fact, only an hour ago, a number of groups went back into federal court to say that President Trump needs to fund the full amount of SNAP payments per month. He has already said that he will take some of the contingency funds within the US Department of Agriculture to fund half of the benefits of SNAP. But before we get into that too much more, I want to, of course, bring in the real expert, bring in our guest for this week. And that is Jennifer, Jen Lemmerman. And she is the chief policy officer at Project Bread, an organization that deals with hunger right here in Massachusetts. As of 2025, over one in three households in Massachusetts were experiencing food insecurity, according to the Greater Boston Food Bank. Project Bread connects people and communities in Massachusetts to reliable sources of food and also advocates for policies that make food more accessible. Jen leads a lot of the state, local, and federal policy efforts, and she also does a lot of work with the actual organization in terms of the administration. And in terms of developing such programs as Make Hunger History Campaign, a first of its kind collective impact aimed at ending hunger across the state. So welcome, Jen. Thanks for making some time. And keep the questions coming. We’ll turn to them now. But welcome, Jen.

Jen Lemmerman: Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Archon Fung: Yeah, thanks for coming on. So just to open up, can you tell us a little bit about what Project Bread does about fighting hunger and food insecurity in Massachusetts?

Jen Lemmerman: Yeah, happy to. Project Bread is a statewide food security organization. We’re a nonprofit organization, and our mission is to end hunger in Massachusetts permanently. We do that through policy, through prevention, and through programming and partnerships. So we help people in real time through our programs like the Food Source Hotline and working right within schools on school meal programs and summer meal sites, while also driving long-term change through policy. So what makes us, you know, or how we try to look at things a little differently is we don’t see hunger as inevitable. It’s a policy choice. It’s a policy problem. It’s not a food supply problem. And that means it’s solvable if we have the political will. So our work is about making sure that’s how we approach it. That’s great.

Archon Fung: And would you say that the what’s the balance of your work that focuses on kind of policy change and policy issues versus direct support for individuals versus raising money for organizations that are working on hunger? I know I’ve never done it, but a lot of friends of mine participate in the Walk for Hunger, which which Project Bread has been organizing, I think, since the nineteen sixties.

Jen Lemmerman: Yeah, that’s right. The Walk for Hunger, it’s actually the oldest pledge walk in the nation. We see a lot of walks that happen now, but Project Fred’s Walk for Hunger was the first. And that is just, it’s all about community. It’s certainly about raising money. That’s a fundraiser that supports us and our work. And then also we have a program that allows our community-based partners to walk and have a team and to fundraise for themselves as well. And it’s just a wonderful day, first Sunday in May, every single year. Invite all of your viewers to come out and join us. It’s a lot of fun. But yeah, throughout the rest of the year, what we’re doing with those funds that we raised through the walk is we are doing that programming and that policy work. And to be honest, the balance of it, you know, I mean, it’s fairly even, but depending on what’s going on, right? So right now, I know we’re going to talk about the shutdown and the impact of Snap not being available. We just had a four times increase of calls to our hotline. last week because people are scared and they know that their food resources are not guaranteed to them as this political debate continues to to stretch on. And so, you know, we’re focused a lot on that direct response right now. But, you know, this is, again, a ultimately a political debate and a policy choice. And so our policy team where I sit is is equally really ramped up our work right now in order to try to make sure people get get what they need.

Stephen Richer: Well, so let’s talk about that because Pruitt Boy noted in the chat that the SNAP benefits have been on a little bit of a roller coaster over the last week in terms of what would be available. And so how does that translate into what you’re seeing from Massachusetts who are in food insecure positions, I think the term is called? And then, of course, for Project Bread, how has that translated?

Jen Lemmerman: Yeah. So there’s a million people in Massachusetts who participate in the SNAP program. It’s a lot of people. And when we were sort of already in this situation where as of three days ago, November first, we were starting to see the first set of policies take effect from the budget reconciliation bill. Right. The one big, beautiful bill that made major changes to SNAP and other critical programs. So people were already trying to sort of suss out what is that going to mean for me and my family? We have Project Bread. We’re working with our policymakers to really lift up what we expect to see as a result of that. So that’s happening as of November first. But then also as of Saturday, it was the first day that SNAP was actually entirely shut down in terms of benefits going out as a result of the government shutdown. So, you know, we’re seeing both of those things playing out all at once. There’s a lot of confusion. But the bottom line is that as of right now, on the fourth of November, we are four days into SNAP being unavailable for people.

Stephen Richer: Sorry, can I pause you there? Just because there’s been a little bit of Lack of clarity, just because I know some people are posting in the chat with Trump said this morning, even on Truth Social. But as it hits the ground in terms of your EBT card, those did not have the monthly payment go to them four days ago.

Jen Lemmerman: Yes, so the way that Snap is rolled out throughout the month, it’s not sort of on the first, everybody enrolled, a whole million people see their card re-up, right? So it’s actually based on your ID number, and it goes out between the first of the month and the fourteenth of the month. It’s rolled out, you know, throughout those days so as of today about thirty percent of people in massachusetts who are enrolled in snap have missed have missed their card being re-opted and that will you know continue you know we’ve obviously have some new updates and in terms of the the litigation and what’s going to happen there uh so we’re still you know that the state and we’re in really close touch with them are trying to figure out you know what’s going to happen with that but but you know between now and the fourteenth So it’s sort of that rolling release of benefits onto the SNAP card. So about thirty percent of people so far have missed their November benefits.

Archon Fung: I see. And so my understanding of the state of play of the litigation and the administration’s policy is at first the administration said in case of a shutdown or the agency said in case of a shutdown, we’ll use our contingency funds to keep SNAP going as long as we can. And then the administration said, no, no, in case of a shutdown, we’re not going to use any funds. And then two federal judges, at least one, I think two, ruled that the agency had to use its contingency funds to pay snap benefits. And then a couple of days ago, the administration came back and said, OK, well, we’ll pay, we’ll use the contingency funds, but at a fifty percent level. And there was some uncertainty about when the money would actually start charging up people’s SNAP cards. And then in the chat, some people are saying this morning, which I did, I missed because we were prepping for the show. said President Trump had said, no, no, we’re not going to pay any SNAP benefits until the Democrats come to the table. So what’s your sense of the state of play in talking to your colleagues in Massachusetts state government, et cetera?

Jen Lemmerman: Yeah, so that’s a good summary. So where we’re at right now is, yes. So to be very, very clear, the contingency funds, there is a SNAP contingency fund that was created for this exact purpose. Right. So in previous administrations, they said the government shuts down if we’re in a situation where the government is unable to reach an agreement and it actually shuts down, that should not impact SNAP. Right. Programs like Medicaid as well are mandatory funding. They have to go out. And so SNAP had this contingency fund for this exact purpose. In the very early stages of this shutdown, the administration said we have a contingency fund. That’s our plan. As things continue to get very heated and very political, that plan changed. And and then the message became we don’t we don’t have funds to use. We’re not going to use the funds. In fact, we’re not allowed to use the contingency fund for this purpose. And that was when some attorneys general, including Massachusetts Attorney General Andrea Campbell and several others, and some governors stepped in with a lawsuit and said, ‘We actually think you have to do this.’ And you’re right, two federal judges, one in Massachusetts, another in Rhode Island, ruled late last week that they did, in fact, need to use the contingency fund. That’s what it’s for. The thing that, you know, is sort of around the fifty percent is that the contingency fund is about six billion dollars. SNAP nationwide is about nine billion. And so, you know, there actually is less money in that fund. Now, those judges did encourage the administration to find other funding. They’ve been able to do it in a lot of other programs. In fact, they very quietly. And we’re happy about this. Found money for WIC at the end of last week as WIC was also approaching the end It’s funding in this government.

Stephen Richer: What’s WIC? Oh, sorry.

Jen Lemmerman: WIC is the Supplemental Program for Women, Infants and Children. And so that’s one where people can get milk and cheese and other really important nutritional foods for young children, nursing mothers, pregnant women. And so that will for now continue. And they found the funding for that. So they were encouraged to do the same for SNAP. And as of right now, so they won’t. And I think that, you know, the pressure to do so will continue on various fronts.

Stephen Richer: Jen, can state and local governments fill that gap?

Archon Fung: And civil society are individuals, right?

Stephen Richer: Let’s do the state and local first. Before we raid your pants. And then it will fall on civil society if the answer is no. Groups that you work with undoubtedly.

Archon Fung: How is Massachusetts doing on filling this gap that is huge right now? Hopefully it will reduce, but we don’t know when.

Jen Lemmerman: Right. So… SNAP in Massachusetts is about two hundred and forty million dollars a month. It’s an enormous amount of money that comes from the federal government into the state. So it would be, you know, for the state to in any sort of long term way, pick up the gap, even if it’s at fifty percent, would be devastating. I mean, hugely disruptive. The state couldn’t ultimately do it over the long term. Local governments, I can’t imagine that they would be able to fill that gap either. So just from a keeping the program itself whole perspective, it would be incredibly difficult for state and local governments to fill this gap. We do have, and we’ve, you know, been in close touch with the administration and with the legislature, you know, the state has certain funds available and you know, they, you know, weren’t you know, they’re, Again, could not do it long term. From Project Bread and our partners at Make Hunger History, which is the coalition that we lead around ending hunger, our stance has been the federal government needs to do this. This is their job, even in a shutdown. But if they refuse and inaction continues, we need state leaders to step up because people are going hungry as a result of this.

Archon Fung: And are you seeing state and local leaders step up?

Jen Lemmerman: I see them doing lots of things. I mean, we’ve seen the governor advance emergency funding for emergency food funding, which is the funding that goes to food banks and food pantries. They have advanced four million dollars to try to help, at least with the emergency situation that we’re in, try to get more food out there. We’ve seen so many municipalities just getting the word out of how people can get food. They’ve been running their own food drives, individuals all over. You know, I heard you say your wife is distributing food cards. You know, it’s really it’s been an incredible response. But at the end of the day, for every one meal that’s distributed through the emergency food system, SNAP creates nine. So just the scale of that is something that SNAP is our nation’s most effective anti-hunger tool.

Stephen Richer: So you’re saying this can’t be filled effectively other than maybe a short term by both state and local government and by civil society?

Jen Lemmerman: That’s right. I mean, there’s been a heroic effort over the last four days, four days into SNAP being shut down. And it’s been incredible to see what people have tried to do to help their neighbors. But there’s just no way to replace the SNAP program that’s functioning properly at the federal level.

Stephen Richer: You say their neighbors who are, you know, I was, as I mentioned to Archon at the outset, I was astonished to read that it was 42 million Americans are using SNAP benefits in some capacity. One out of every eight Americans, as Archon said. Who are these people in terms of the demographics and a sense of just sort of like the Massachusetts, your choose its ends that you’re interacting with?

Archon Fung: Yeah. And then just one more question that’s very related to that is how much help does like for an average family? I know it’s probably gotta be a really diverse group. How much help is SNAP? Is it like it can’t be their whole grocery bill, but is it like half? Is it just like ten percent? And, you know, whatever the ice cream and cookies, I don’t want to trivialize it, but like how much of their how much help is it are they getting for food from SNAP?

Jen Lemmerman: Sure, yeah. So, well, first of all, SNAP is a program for working families, for seniors, for people with disabilities. That is the vast, vast majority, and kids are the people who are participating in SNAP. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding, less so now. Right now, people, I think, are learning how important SNAP is. We’ve seen over the last four days what happens when this program shuts down, right? We’ve seen how critical it is for people and who it is that it’s supporting. It’s really important to understand that that’s who Snap supports. It’s people who are working jobs that don’t pay a wage that allows them to get through the month in our incredibly high expense state. child care and health care and all the things that you all know about. So that’s who’s on Snap. And it’s in every single community in Massachusetts. There is not one community across the state that does not have folks living there who are utilizing Snap at some point. Everyone, in fact, is one crisis, one health care crisis, one job loss away from needing support, making their grocery bills. So it could be any of us. so that’s one really important thing is that people under understand that now how much somebody receives um in snap really depends on the factors of how much they are making and what their needs are and what other supports they might be getting um it was a it was a sort of a flat rate that they sent to everyone to the the card yeah but obviously yeah it’s not it’s a calculation yep and so um and so it’s a wide wide range right and um you know You have sort of averages, you know, I think the average household amount, if you kind of put it all together in Massachusetts over the past year was roughly three hundred dollars for a household for a month for a month. For a month. Yep. And so, you know, you think of your own household and your own grocery bill, won’t be surprised to hear that it does not cover everyone’s groceries. It’s, you know, it is called the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. It’s very much a supplement in that sense. It’s, you know, we hear from most people that it doesn’t make it through the month. And Massachusetts has stepped up in a lot of ways. We have an incredible program called the Healthy Incentives Program, which allows for SNAP dollars to go further when people are buying fresh produce from farmers markets and CSAs. And that’s an investment that the state has made and supports our farmers. And it also makes sure that people not only can stretch their SNAP dollars a little further, but can buy that fresh, healthy produce. So, you know, we’ve had some ways that we’ve been able to do that. But but folks that we talk to on our hotline are are, you know, incredibly planful about their SNAP benefits, knowing sort of how long they last and what they really need, you know, knowing kind of how they can get the bang for the buck in terms of, you know, getting that healthy produce and and what their staples are.

Stephen Richer: You want to show any of the clips.

Archon Fung: Yeah um sarah i don’t know if you have the uh clip from president trump from a few days ago about who he thinks is getting snap benefits if you do roll it.

President Trump: You know largely when you talk about SNAP you’re talking about largely democrats but I’m president. I want to help everybody. I want to help Democrats and Republicans. But when you’re talking about SNAP, if you look, it’s largely Democrats. They’re hurting their own people.

Stephen Richer: It’s not true in as much as it’s consistent with sort of our notions of red and blue states. I was looking at the distribution and the percentage of people who are on SNAP and the states that are traditionally categorized as red states actually have a higher percentage on average. Now, of course, that doesn’t mean that The individuals within those states are voting Republican or voting Democrat. And I assume that I know that Project Bread isn’t checking their voter registration cards before you are interacting with people. But I do think that and especially when we’re talking about one in eight to present the second half of President Trump’s remarks, like this is just. a significant amount of Americans. A lot of people. So the likelihood that it’s all of any type of American is pretty limited when we’re talking about over, you know, twelve percent. Yeah.

Jen Lemmerman: Yes. You know, it’s just so simply not true. And it’s a statement that was made with political rhetoric behind it. Right. To, you know, advance a message that is that is not true. And it’s incorrect about the program and incorrect about the people that the program’s helping. Hunger does not have a party. SNAP benefits work for families, for seniors, for veterans in every corner of this country, red, blue, and everything in between. And in Massachusetts, you’ll find SNAP folks utilizing the SNAP program in every legislative district. It’s one of the most I’ve said this, but the most effective bipartisan anti-poverty programs that we’ve ever had in our country and framing it as a partisan issue, it misses the point. And this is about keeping families fed and our economy stable. And it’s just the facts don’t bear that out at all.

Stephen Richer: So who did your wife volunteer with? And then my question to Jen would be people who are listening or people who are following this news story generally and say that that bothers me. I guess what can I do?

Archon Fung: Yeah. So my wife is doing work with a local church that she goes to and some nonprofits that operate partially in food, partially in clothes, basically in that church and, you know, church basement kind of stereotypically but that’s like i think there’s a lot of that happening in lots of communities.

Stephen Richer: And that’s just the church that’s in your community or something okay Jen what would you as a starting point for someone in the boston metro area to to to look up Yeah.

Jen Lemmerman: So I just want to say first, I think most importantly for people listening, if what you need to do is get help, call us, call our food source hotline. If you are experiencing a need right now, it’s 800-645-8333. And it’s confidential. It’s multilingual and it connects people to every resource available across the state. I would say that’s number one with sort of the crisis that we’re in at this moment. But if you can help and you’re able to help, there are a few things. If you’re able to give, of course, there are the nonprofits right now that are stepping up, including Project Bread. I mentioned we’ve received four times call volume on our hotline. We have staffed up in order to meet that need. But I know that so many are doing that, right? So many are doing that right now. So if you’re able to give, um you know an organization that you know is is is meeting the need um united way also in partnership with the governor created the united response fund which is a way to sort of funnel monetary support uh through the united way and they’ll get it out to those community-based organizations that most need it So that’s one way. Certainly volunteer if you can volunteer. You know, your wife, I think you said they were giving out grocery store gift cards was a wonderful way to get support out there. It allows people choice. It allows them to go to the grocery store and buy what’s best for them. It’s a great way to do some of that emergency food distribution at this point. You know, find out from your churches. Most municipalities have resources about about volunteering as well. So reach out to your town. And you can do it that way. And then, you know, I have to say that as the, you know, the person who leads the policy and advocacy work at Project Bread, use your voice, join us. We have an action team. We make it vote. Yes, it’s a election day, go vote. And, you know, we make it really easy for folks who are passionate about this issue and want to volunteer a little bit of their time. You can be anywhere from, you know, three minutes a month to, you know, trek into the state house with us. We had a big rally last week. to draw attention to this issue. Andrea Campbell, the attorney general, joined us there and everything in between. So go to ProjectBread.org and join our action team. And we’d love to partner with you on this because this is we’re in a crisis at this moment. But, you know, food insecurity, hunger in Massachusetts, even outside of the government shutdown is a crisis and we’re in it for the long term. And our goal is to end hunger permanently. And so we’ll do that by by raising our voices together.

Archon Fung: That’s great. I want to end maybe with a question that’s hard, both in the hard policy-wise, but then also hard maybe to think of emotionally in a way is. So do you think that this crisis is an indication that maybe going forward, the federal government and federal policy will be a less reliable partner in the fight against hunger process? And if that’s the case, are you and other colleagues in hunger kind of considering, well, what do we do if there’s just less federal help there? I know you said, well, you know, there’s no way state and local can fill this gap. But what do you do if you think the federal government is just not going to be there in the way that it was over the last half-century or so?

Jen Lemmerman: Yeah, it has to be a partnership. It has to be right. There’s just federal programs like SNAP are essential and they’re going to continue to be essential. They’re efficient. They’re scalable. You know, they allow people the choice to get the food that’s right for their families in a way that the charitable food system is never going to be able to do. But this crisis does show that we need to be robustly investing, not only in the SNAP program itself. I think if anything, you know, this has shown us again what it looks like when that program goes away and we’re doing our best in every state. Folks are doing their best, but they are not able to meet the requirements. the need in the way that snap is um but strong state and local systems partnering with it um are are really the way to do it right we talked about that SNAP you know doesn’t last the month for most people but there are ways that we can ensure that folks have the resources that they need and it needs to be investments on all levels um you know what’s happening on the federal level now with SNAP, it is not inevitable that during a government shutdown, SNAP needs to shut down. This is a political choice that’s being made. And there are lots of people who are collateral damage in that choice. And I would argue that really if we need to hold our federal government accountable to its responsibility to programs like this one. And so that’s what we need to do and not sort of um let them off the hook in that way but at the same time then build these robust programs state and local around it that that really um support it and and make it really uh meet the need and in our in our you know goal to end hunger here in massachusetts

Stephen Richer: Well, as you all know, we try to keep these around thirty minutes and we’re at that time. I will say in my closing sort of comments that thank you, Jen. I didn’t have much insight into this world. I’m sorry it’s under unfortunate circumstances, but I appreciate you getting on, telling us a bit about the landscape, and a bit about Project Bread. Sean, I agree that this is obviously a broader public policy question. He’s in the comments that in an ideal world, everyone would have enough work and enough money to be able to afford this entirely on their own. I dare say Jen would say the reality is that’s not the world we’re currently operating in, but maybe we can get to that world eventually through better public policy. And I’ll also just say, Sean, I think you’re wrong about me on the New York mayoral race. Which we may talk about that next time. We’ll leave that for another time. So now I’ll hand it over to Archon.

Archon Fung: Great. Thank you, everyone, for joining. And thanks, Jennifer, for just a hugely insightful discussion. You know, Godspeed in your work going forward, especially in the next few days and perhaps few weeks coming up. Everybody out there, if you have suggestions or feedback, please email us at info at ash.harvard.edu. recommend the live stream to your friends. You can get it on any of your podcast platforms and on YouTube. And huge thanks to our production team, Sarah and Colette and Courtney. And we hope to see everyone next week.

Jen Lemmerman: Thank you so much.